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Post by skylark on Sept 16, 2009 17:03:39 GMT -5
Wow, I counted four 'shit's in that post. *whispers* I think ThatGuyWithTheGlasses would like a word with you. I mean seriously, what possible thing could they have done or added to make it be not as much of a piece of shit as it was...? ...... ...... www.youtube.com/watch?v=pcxthg885ZY&feature=related*ahem* Sorry. Wanted a chance to use that.
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Post by northlander on Sept 16, 2009 23:44:08 GMT -5
Oh, pfft. FF XII was better than the following FF games: VII, VIII and X.
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Post by Roas on Sept 17, 2009 1:22:30 GMT -5
Oh, pfft. FF XII was better than the following FF games: VII, VIII and X. Wow. Sorry, North...but I'm gonna have to lay the smack down on you now...especially if you are saying XII is better than X, which I recently played through again so it's reeeaaally fresh. Okay. Where do you want to start? Let's take this by all the things that are important in RPGs. First we'll start with: (warning tons of spoilers ahead) Characters: Characters make the RPG. Without great characters, you can't build a great story. If your characters are weak, then your story is going to be weak. Let's go game by game focusing first on the Hero and then his supporting cast. VII: Cloud Strife, the first and therefore the posterboy for the brooding, moody, silent hero type who represents a certain type of badass. Cloud also ushers in the period of heroes packing big ass swords. Let's break him down over all, though. Now, I'll admit he's not my favorite of FF heroes (Cecil is my man), but Cloud was a detailed character from top to bottom. He had a fully developed personality that was drawn out by his interactions with all the other members of the cast. He had a great history of the simple soldier who ends up making the hero's choice (the truth of the Nibelheim incident where he saves Tifa from Sephiroth). Like I said, there was an actual relationships between he and the other cast members...even a Love Triangle with Aerith and Tifa! He had real emotions of guilt and self loathing over his past, not to mention his inability to save Aerith. Depsite being a moody bastard for a good part of the game, Cloud ends up growing and changing into the standard hero by making the hero choices to help his friends and save his world from total annihilation. He awknowledges feelings and emotions to grow as a person. Let's also take into account that he was distinctive character. He had a real style in both appearence and abilities. His moodiness lent to his badass, cool attitude in battle (motor cycle chase out of Midgard), and the fact he kicked ass with a big ass sword, Omnislash For The Win being the first time we ever had an attack that dealt that kind of devestating damage. And Cloud's supporting cast was one of the most entertaining FF casts ever giving us a talking cat who was truly a civilized gentleman, an annoying ninja girl who was obsessed with greed, a cursing guy with a gun arm, Vincent was and is a badass all unto himself, one of the two best Cids in all of FF, and of course...Tifa...she defends herself. The only FAIL is Cait Sith...and we all hate him, so we can let that one go. So let's see...a main character that is distinctive and grows as a person along with a great supporting cast with personalities and stories all their own. VIII: Squall Lionheart was basically a Cloud clone, but he still fulfilled growing into and telling his own story. Once again we have a moody asshole who is a badass. Squall basically spends the first part of the game thinking nothing matters but his own crap, only until he meets Rinoa and slowly falls in love with her. As we travel through FF VIII we are taken on a story along with Squall that reveals the pain of being alone and thinking there are no attachments in the world. As the game progresses, Squall learns that he was never really alone, that his connections to the world were always there with him in his friends. We watch as he evolves from a selfish guy who cares about nothing to a man in love who goes to the ends of the earth and even beyond (space) to protect a woman he loves as well as to save the world and freedom to live as one chooses instead of under slavery to the Sorceresses. And just like Cloud, Squall is a distinctive hero. He's defenitily got his own style...and through him we were introduced to the Gunblade, one of the most unique weapons in FF lore that will continue to this day in FF XIII if I am not mistaken. Now, the VIII cast is not the greatest thing in the world, but Quistis and Rinoa tend to save it for me, especially Rinoa because her role is so large as the other half of the romance that is part of the driving force of the game. So in recap another distinctive hero in Squall with his own persona, growth, and trademarks, and while not stellar supporting cast a still decent cast with no one that really garners a ton of hate. X: Tidus. I like Tidus. Talk about a guy with a fully flushed out character who we watch grow and grow as the game goes on. Not only do we watch him take the hero's journey to save the world, but we get another romance with Yuna. Tidus starts off as a guy who really is selfish, cocky, arrogant, and short sighted, really only caring about what's in front of him. Not to mention we get the whole added character development of his Daddy Issues (a real first in FF lore as well). We watch as his mind and world is broadened, as he realizes that there are things in a world worth fighting for like Freedom and Love...as well as learning there are things worth sacrificing for when it comes to the greater good...and someone you love. By the time we get to the end of the game, Tidus is a man who has conquered his inner demons concerning Jecht, his own selfish desires about getting his old life back, and discovering the determination to sacrifice himself if he can save and entire world as well as the woman he loves. Again, we also find Tidus has a distinctive imagery (are we seeing a pattern yet?) His sword sets are artistic and beautifully designed, as well as the integration of his Blitzball skills. His Limit Breaks are also great, especially his final one. Coming now to the supporting cast...one of the best ever in the FF series. Auron is a badass incarnate with a jug of moonshine on his hip, sunglasses, and a big ass sword, not to mention his own complicated past. Yuna is a great leading lady who we all end up loving and feeling for as we learn about what the fate of the High Summoner truly is. We all love Rikku for her innocence and comic relief. Lulu brings the sex appeal. Kimari is another badass with a great back story. Wakka is about the only fail for me as he tends to get on my nerves. Recapping we see that Tidus is fully flushed out and developed with great character twists like a Dad issue, romance, and discovering himself to be more than he thought he ever was. He's also got a distinct style all his own, and the cast around him is one of the best ever, equaled only by the cast of IV in my book. XII: Vaan. Vaan is one of the most uninspiring heroes I have ever come across. He wants to be an air pirate...great. He stumbles into an adventure that is really just an attempt to thwart war that does not really threaten the world as a whole...how epically heroic. Win or lose..the world's gonna be there when the war is over. And since Vaan has no character aside from his desire to be an air pirate, he does not grow AT ALL. He joins a side of the war that is more in the right than the other. He has no revelations about himself...he has no history that matters as a whole to build around...his personal actions and choices do not really affect anything. In the end he's really just along for the ride as a body guard to Ashe who is really more of a hero than Vaan...but not by much. While she does have a history and makes some good character revelations through the game, she is neither compelling nor attractive in any sense. And what image does Vaan give off? He's dressed like a metro sexual...that's it. Thanks to the crap armory system of the game, he has no signature weapon or skill set. And the supporting cast...what a bland collection of nobodies. Out of all of them about three have any sort of background to build off of, and even then they are weak. Oh no...I'm not welcome in my village because I left it without permission...oh no my father is a crazy scientist so I became a pirate...my twin brother tried to kill me once waaaaah Gimme a damn break. These characters suck the butt of a monkey. Their designs were weak and dull visually, and they do nothing to inspire. No one has a signature weapon really, and our supposed main hero Vaan does absolutely nothing to evolve through the entire game. He basically just goes from point to point saying "Let's do the right thing" and leaving it at that. No romance, no relationships, no nothing. Story: Now that we've established the characters, let's look at the stories. VII: Your basic save the world from a psycho who wants to destroy it. Simple, yes, but executed effectively. Combined with our hero's journey, we learn about a world that is dying because it's being drained of its lifeforce, while at the same time under attack by an alien entity that wishes only to annihilate and then use it for a shell to destroy more worlds. So we follow our heroic cast as they grow closer together, learn the deepest, most heart renching secrets about each other, and persevere to win the day...wait...they don't really win the day, do they? The twist here was that even though they stop Sephiroth, in the end it's up to the planet to save everyone from Meteor. And with their pasts cleansed, the planet saved and refreshed, they are all given a chance to live their lives over...at least until Advent Children when the shit hits the fan again. VIII: The save the world motif takes a bit of a twist here. Squall and friends are not so much saving the world from a psycho, but from an endless cycle of tyranny that serves to enslave the people of the world not only in body, but in mind and soul. Through their adventures the heroes discover the strength in bonds of friendship and trust, as well as how powerful a driving force love can be. In the end they discover that the most important things in the world are right there in front of them, and that with freedom they can explore all the great things life has to offer. X: Here is a combination of both VII and VIII in the save the world motif. Spira is caught in the horrible cycle of Sin's death and rebirth. Because of Yu-Yevon's dogmatic and truly senseless motives, the world is caught in a constant cycle of death and no growth. Tidus and friends not only take a journey of self discovery that builds bonds of friendship and love, they take a journey to free Spira from the tyranny of mindless dogma. They break the bonds of meaningless sacrifice, with Tidus making a truly selfless sacrifice to end the cycle of Sin so that both Spira and Yuna can live with the freedom to live as they choose...to grow and truly embrace life. XII: Vaan wants to be an air pirate. In his quest to do so he gets caught up in Ashe's war to save her country from being enslaved. Admirable, but not epically heroic as we have seen in other games. The characters of XII do absolutely nothing to grow as people in their quest to simply stop a war...a war that while devestating will not destroy the world. Yeah, our villain...who is not even really that evil, has a dark spirit bad thing on his side...but the world is still not about to be destroyed in its entirty. Yeah, one side would be enslaved, but life would go on and another war of rebellion would eventually break out, yatta yatta yatta. Vaan does nothing awesome to save anyone or anything...has no revelation that saves the world...does not even really have a love interest. In other words, the story is flat with no emotion whatsoever. Poorly drawn characters lend nothing to it and in the end no one really does or learns anything of value save "we stopped a bad spirit being from controling these other people for war...yay." Gameplay and Extras: VII: Classic turn bases RPG that gave us the Limit Breaks for the first time! Guiant badass moves that tore the monsters to pieces. Classic FF summons are here in full force, including the game breaker that was Knights of the Round. We also get a whole host of mini games, something unseen before this game, as well as the charming Chocobo Breeding system. This was also the first time a game had true cut scenes with FMV action. All of that is full of win. VIII: As tedius as the Draw system was, it was all right once you go the hang of it, and the Junction system was interesting in buffing all your characters. The weapon forge system was first introduced in this game, and it made it a cool way to get your gear instead of grinding to buy it or forced to search it out in the corners of dungeons. Triple Triad was also a quite addictive and enjoyable card game. And with this game we saw SE take that step to stream lined graphics and even better FMV cut scenes. Not full of win, but there was win none the less. X: Back to classic turn based system with the twist of Active Battle combined with the ability to sub your party members in the middle of battle! The game's soundtrack was awesome from beginning to end, the virtually fully voice acted game was incredible, and the FMV cut scenes were better than ever...and rewatchable!!!! And let us not forget the greatest mini game ever.....BLITZBALL!!!!!! Full of Epic Win XII: Have you ever played FF XI? FF XII was basically a platform version of FF XI for those who never played the MMO. You ran around...killed monsters in the same screen with everyone using basically the same weapons and armor. The Limit Breaks were unwatchable because A) so many bright flashes obvuscates the action you can't really tell what's going on and B) you're so busy trying to time the crap you can't even watch the stupid Breaks. The summoned monsters...a collection of gothic looking creatures that were more ugly than artistic, and did I mention useless?? And congratulations, your game wide minigame is to go and kill big bad monsters, aka Notorious Monsters if you played FF XI, for gear and armor that you don't even need to beat the game...not to mention the farther in you go on the stupid hunts the longer they take. I'm sorry...but if I wanted to take five hours to kill a monster I'd go back to FF XI where at least I'm playing with other people and accomplishing something. Cut scenes few and far between, none of them even approaching the fantastic moments of FF X's really big scenes...the only really interesting one being the fleet battle at the end...woopie. The opening scene of FF X destroys that all by itself. And the soundtrack? What soundtrack? Not a single track stuck with me, and you all know I am constantly looking for things to steal and use in the stories. I think I've made my case. VII, VIII, and X are loaded with characters, story, and true personality. XII has none of those things. Okay, who else wants some?
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Post by Ambrienne on Sept 17, 2009 10:41:29 GMT -5
I think you may be a little bit too harsh on the soundtrack. But then, maybe that's because we have access to such a wealth of absolutely stellar ones now, that it kind of spoils us. ...Or it could be that your general less than pleasant feelings towards the game itself could have caused some cross contamination.
I don't have that problem with this game, because I owned the soundtrack way before I ever played/attempted to play the game. And yeah, I disliked it. It bored me so much that I think I quit around a third of the way through.
I'm going to listen to the soundtrack again to make sure, but if what I remember is correct, most of the pieces are pretty nice... if not exactly what you would call favorites material. Maybe it's just not your style... or such a subset of classical music doesn't really lend itself towards 'stealing' for the saga to begin with.
I will not get into a discussion of the specifically mentioned games themselves with you, though (other than to agree that no. IV was the best). I'll just say that my view of them is nowhere near as rosy and leave it at that.
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Post by Roas on Sept 17, 2009 19:08:57 GMT -5
I think you may be a little bit too harsh on the soundtrack. But then, maybe that's because we have access to such a wealth of absolutely stellar ones now, that it kind of spoils us. ...Or it could be that your general less than pleasant feelings towards the game itself could have caused some cross contamination. I don't have that problem with this game, because I owned the soundtrack way before I ever played/attempted to play the game. And yeah, I disliked it. It bored me so much that I think I quit around a third of the way through. I'm going to listen to the soundtrack again to make sure, but if what I remember is correct, most of the pieces are pretty nice... if not exactly what you would call favorites material. Maybe it's just not your style... or such a subset of classical music doesn't really lend itself towards 'stealing' for the saga to begin with. I will not get into a discussion of the specifically mentioned games themselves with you, though (other than to agree that no. IV was the best). I'll just say that my view of them is nowhere near as rosy and leave it at that. Well, it was late and I went into attack dog mode when I wrote all that, so I want to clarify that I do think FF VII is overrated, and that VIII fell short of its potential for even the reasons that I stated. However, compared to FF XII they are far better games with real RPG set ups, and that was the driving point I was trying to get across. That at least all those games have real characters and stories with development compared to what we were given in XII. My arguements may seem rosy, but they are so because those games, at least to me, look like gems of untarneshed virtue compared to XII. As for the soundtrack thing...I honestly don't remember a single track. I think I may have liked a few things, but my distaste for the game probably keeps them behind a mental block.
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Post by northlander on Sept 18, 2009 4:13:34 GMT -5
Well, I was about to write an attack dog message from myself, but after this short explanation -- plus the fact that we're arguing over FINAL FANTASY games -- just made me realize that it's probably not worth my time. Especially since your bark is far, far worse than your bite. I want to make this absolutely clear, though: FF IV, VI and IX are the only FF games REALLY worth playing, and even they kind of pale compared to the Lunar games, the Grandia games or even the Phantasy Star games. (Well, except possibly PS 3, who could do with some fleshing out.) True, even FF IX don't have the same flashiness as the Playstation 2 FF's, but then, if there's one thing FF VII proved to me, then that would be that its bombastic flashiness is just so overdone and overrated. It did have the balls to kill one of its main characters mid-game, so I'll credit it for that. However, barring the admittedly greatly improved 3D models and margially better music, FF VIII is still a huge, fucking disaster that failed in just about everything else. But don't just take MY word for it when there's this amazingly hilarious multi-episode video review that does the job so well. FF X is also, admittedly, a better game than FF VII, but it's still annoying to play due to its labyrinthine build and incredibly restrictive first half. As for the main heroes of FF VII, VIII and X; I didn't like either of them. At all. Cloud and Squall are essentially the same character; brooding nobodies that only grew up because they got a good dose of reality thrown in their faces, and not because they wanted to, much less aspired to. It took Cloud becoming a wheel-chair bound vegetable for him to realize that maybe he should stop just thinking of himself all the time. Although, again, I have to give the game credit for not placing Cloud at the center of attention like they sort of did with FF VIII and certainly did with FF X. But it took the brainless action movie Advent Children for the main characters to become the badasses I would have liked seeing in the game. As for the game lacking in BIG BOMBASTIC MICHAEL BAY EXPLOSION SEQUENCES, well... honestly, I don't find that worth even commenting on. FF XII had a great intro sequence that set the stage for the game, and a nice ending sequence that tied most things up neatly and just the way I like it. FF X's ending wasn't necessarily bad, but it was shortened to make way for maybe the only FF game that is worse than VIII; namely X-2. And if it'll make you feel better, X-2 was a good deal worse than VIII; so much, in fact, that I turned it off after a couple of hours' worth of gameplay, after which I sold it and promised myself to forget it ever existed. FF VIII's ending, though, was decent enough, I guess, but the less said about VII's ending, the better. It was so lacking, they needed a CG movie to make up for it. And here's the biggest problem I had with FF X: the main characters. Specifically Tidus, who, at the very least, isn't a whiner. But the game just sets him up as someone whom everyone eventually just becomes characters to cater to his whims, because lord knows he might just start crying if they didn't. Ironically, though, he's actually not generally as useless as Cloud and Squall, who spends most of their first parts respectively just shrugging off anything or ignoring it until something really big happens. FF X was also the first Playstation FF game that made me wonder why any of the side cast weren't the main characters; like Auron, who is indeed a badass, or Lulu, whose snarkiness I just loved. But hey, if you want a cynical badass as a main lead, how about Ryudo from Grandia 2. Ok, so he doesn't have a huge, overcompensating sword to his name, but his wit is far sharper than Cloud, Squall and Tidus' put together. Compared to those, however, Vaan wasn't even half as irritating, because HE WASN'T THE MAIN CHARACTER. Sure, he was the one you first started playing as, just as Locke (well, technically Terra, but...) was the first you started playing as in FF VI. The part I really find amusing about the whole deal is that Vaan wasn't even supposed to be in the game at all. Originally, Ashe and Basch were the ones who the story was supposed to revolve around -- which it still kind of does -- but then the producers were afraid that people would abandon the game because it doesn't have a teenage main character in it, hence the arrival of Vaan. Now, it's true that this made the story flow more clunkily than needed, mostly because they had to accomodate for his prescense, but the game itself handled that pretty well, I think. And I liked it even more BECAUSE Vaan wasn't the center of attention the whole time. Sure, he had some stakes in this, but for once, we had an RPG where the kiddies had to step aside, because the adults had business to attend to. And for what it's worth, I rather liked that Vaan didn't go around acting like everything around him revolved around himself, plus his sibling-like relationship with Penelo was actually quite refreshing, what with the two of them growing up together and also looking after all the young kids in the poorer areas of their home city. In many ways, Vaan's actions makes him far the bigger hero than Cloud or Squall, who spent most of the time at the beginning acting only if they got paid or if "duty" called for it, even if they didn't really want to themselves. Tidus, to his credit, at least shares some of the same ambitions of better heroes, so I don't want to be too hard on him. As for the whole part about Vaan wanting to be a sky pirate, yeah, that was... not good. Although I'd like to add that FF XII seems to have a tenuous grasp of what a pirate really is. I'd think "rogue" would be a better description. Historically, the game had flaws too. Remember, I said I liked it better than VII, VIII and X, but that doesn't mean the game is without its share of issues. True, the story could have done without the whole backstory of those spiritual/alien/whatever beings that pulled the strings from the shadows, but for once, it's a game that's steeped more in realism, with political elements vying for positions and the fact that you had to keep this in mind when you travelled around the game world. And for once, the game wasn't about just one character and his main love interest again. (Although you could make a point that, since Aeris went and got herself killed, neither did FF VII, even with the addition of the movie.) I'd also grant the FF VII game that it had a lot of interesting things on the side to do. Some of these minigames were actually quite fun, certainly a nice distraction from the continuous "ZOMG WE HAVE TO GO GET SEPIROTH BECAUSE HE WANTS TO CRASH A METEOR INTO THE PLANET", except... dude, do you really have time for fun and games when there's something like this at stake? Seriously, put that basketball down and get the hell out of Golden Saucer. What? You want to go snowboarding for balloons first? Bah, kids today. They have no sense of priorities, I tell ya. Besides, the Lunar games didn't really have a lot in the way of sidequests either, so what's your point? And I just LOVE how you go into how the war in XII doesn't "threaten the world as a whole". No, but it sure will make life difficult for a lot of people and cause a lot of lost lives in the war itself, never mind the aftermath. I'm sorry if that's not BAD enough or EPIC enough for you, or not a worthy enough of a cause to try to stop it from happening. I guess the HUGE HULKING battleships that fly around the world threatening destruction by lasers or the judges that go around mercilessly slaughtering anyone who gets in their way just isn't worth getting out of bed for in the morning, even if your brother was either caught up in or taking part in a political betrayal that threw countries into war with each other and lost a princess her kingdom merely for being caught up in the middle of it. Also, Fran wasn't thrown out of the village. She chose to leave, with the full understanding that if she did, she could never be a part of the village again. And she wasn't the only Viera to do so. (There was one thing that puzzled me, though; the Viera was a race of bunny-eared people -- ok, amusing enough -- but the thing that got me taken aback was that all of them were basically adolescent females. No males, and no kids or old people among them. There was also this village with these large, muscular beings that all wore masks, which was some kind of mirror image of the Viera village; all big, brawny males, and no children, but supposedly some elderly, even if it was kind of hard to tell, what with all of them wearing masks.) Also, Basch willingly went to jail because, as far as I remember, if he didn't, it would only escalate things, simply because he wouldn't have been able to prove his innocence otherwise, which would just make things worse for his allies and what they were trying to fight for. On the flipside, Balthier might not have the most interesting backstory, but he more than makes up for it with his insight to how most things work and his suave, James Bond-like personality, which is actually pretty cool. One thing I really liked about FF XII, however, was the battle engine. No, I've never actually played XI, but, so what if the setup itself is slightly reminiscent of that game? When you get down to it, the only difference is that there's no more random encounters, but rather, you're walking around in a large, very believable world with a lot of different beings in it. And odd Viera naming customs aside (four random letters? What's up with that?), none of it really felt out of place. And here's the thing; the only part of the battle engine that's different, if you discount the fact that there's no random encounters, is that you can move any characters at will during battle. Other than that, it's the same business as in the earlier games that makes use of the action bar premise. You choose the attacks or the magic or the items, and the characters do what you tell them to. Except now, distance to enemies actually factor in, which makes the battles more interesting. And, if you don't feel like keeping an eye on all of them, you can have a gambit system do basic controls for the others. ("Basic" expanding to "fairly thorough" if you take the time to expand it.) Jeez, this post is turning out to be rather extensive after all, huh? ^^;; As for the clothing, I have no comment. Honestly, pretty much all RPGs suffer this same flaw: it has our characters wear the exact same in scorching deserts as in freezing, icy wastes -- which is why I made a joke about that in my Lunar EB Let's Play. That said, why wouldn't it make sense that two characters wouldn't be able to wear the same kind of armor? Is there some cosmic RPG law that states that shops must carry individual equipment pieces for EVERY SINGLE PERSON ON THE PLANET? How the hell does THAT make any sense? Hell, even Lunar had the good sense of realizing that maybe, just maybe, whatever Hiro could wear, so could Leo.. or even Ronfar. I always find it so ludicrous when weapon and armor stores carry items specifically designed for one hero, and one hero alone. It might make a little more sense when it comes to weapons, but there is no excuse when it comes to protective gear. Granted, FF XII might be a little bit too ridiculous with it, having everyone being able to use everything, but just for the sake of diplomacy, let's just pretend that they have slightly different types of armor pieces of the same type, like... say, some fitted for women and others for men. It's not like dressing up people in different kinds of armor have ever changed the way they look onscreen in almost all cases of JRPGing. (This was actually one of the things Rogue Galaxy got right.) Anyway, honestly, I think this will do. While I rather liked PLAYING FF XII, I don't think it's quite worth getting this worked up about, as it's a decent game. Yes, it's flawed, but I honestly don't get this unbridled hatred for it when it's hardly worse than any other FF game since they moved over to the Playstation and suddenly found out that they had the power to make the games larger, louder and more bombastic. And we all know just how much THAT is worth, right? At any rate, I feel like such a hypocrite now. -_- Edit: Right, right. Games I am playing. Well, actually, I'm playing a lot of Sacred 2 these days, although I also recently picked up Bubble Bobble Neo on LiveArcade and Colin McRae DiRT2 to satisfy my rallying needs.
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Post by eliddell on Sept 18, 2009 10:24:42 GMT -5
My personal conclusion is this: FFXII is an RPG for people who don't normally play RPGs, and putting it out under the Final Fantasy name was a big mistake (that last also holds for XI and X-2, which don't qualify as RPGs at all under my personal taxonomy). It just doesn't belong--it's an action RPG, while all the previous Final Fantasy games up to and including X were traditional RPGs. It's as though they put out an FPS and claimed it was the next Lunar game. Combine that with the fact that the characters are mostly meh and the plot pretty much falls apart halfway through and is the sort of thing that the Suikodens do better anyway (I mean, think about it: Suikoden II is, like FFXII, just about a war, no world saving, but has a depth of plot and a level of character development that XII never got anywhere close to), and you've got a mediocre game whose main positive attribute is the eye candy. ::clears throat:: Uh, currently playing? Just started Mana Khemia 2 last night. It seems to retain much of the charm of the first game, and I love the fact that Flay is back (although I don't like his new character design--it actually makes him look younger than he was in the first Mana Khemia, even with that silly pipe). Lilly, on the other hand, I could feed straight to the nearest garbage disposal and never miss her. I'm having a lot of minor cosmetic issues with the game itself, though--a lot of text is hard to read, and the voices have this slightly distorted reverb effect. I mean, I know my equipment is old, but didn't they even test this thing on a CRT?
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Post by Roas on Sept 18, 2009 12:29:15 GMT -5
Well, I was about to write an attack dog message from myself, but after this short explanation -- plus the fact that we're arguing over FINAL FANTASY games -- just made me realize that it's probably not worth my time. Especially since your bark is far, far worse than your bite. Hey now. No need to take a pot shot at me. I didn't make any references to you. I kept my post strictly about the games. So, let's take this one step at a time (boy I'm glad I get to do this during daylight hours this time): I want to make this absolutely clear, though: FF IV, VI and IX are the only FF games REALLY worth playing, and even they kind of pale compared to the Lunar games, the Grandia games or even the Phantasy Star games. (Well, except possibly PS 3, who could do with some fleshing out.) True, even FF IX don't have the same flashiness as the Playstation 2 FF's, but then, if there's one thing FF VII proved to me, then that would be that its bombastic flashiness is just so overdone and overrated. It did have the balls to kill one of its main characters mid-game, so I'll credit it for that. However, barring the admittedly greatly improved 3D models and margially better music, FF VIII is still a huge, fucking disaster that failed in just about everything else. But don't just take MY word for it when there's this amazingly hilarious multi-episode video review that does the job so well. FF X is also, admittedly, a better game than FF VII, but it's still annoying to play due to its labyrinthine build and incredibly restrictive first half. First, as much as I love Lunar, let's not put it on a pedistal. FF IV is one of the original games that fully flushed out characters with full backgrounds and stories to tell. In its own right it is equal to Lunar on all levels. Secondly, let's not distract from the point that this is about FF games and not other series. While most of those games are good, this debate has nothing to do with them. On topic, I don't know why you are bringing up bombasticity and flashiness? I never did, and they were not parts of my arguements. I didn't talk about graphics or blowy up moments at all in terms of making a game something quality. The graphics of FF VIII are frankly atrocious, but (as it happens to be one of the games I am currently replaying over the summer) that aside it does not detrat at all from the gameplay experience if one is really trying to play it. If we used graphics as a sole standard for quality, then XII would destroy all the games because it's engine was quite good visually wise. And frankly, FF VIII gets a bad wrap. While not the greatest of games, if you come at it to just play it, then it opens up as a decent story. But don't just take my word for it...here's someone else who recently also replayed it with an open mind (at least with his comments on VIII...I disagree with his Blitzball opinion) www.rpgfan.com/editorials/2009/08-24.htmlPlease elaborate your description of X's "labyrinthine build" alongside your restrictive comment. Are you saying there is something wrong with a game actually keeping someone on the storyline instead of letting players run around like spastic ADD nutbars in a sandbox environment? RPGs are about story flow, character growth, and progression, not about being able to run around world environments unchecked, possibly into zones where things will simply destroy you with a single womp. As for the main heroes of FF VII, VIII and X; I didn't like either of them. At all. Cloud and Squall are essentially the same character; brooding nobodies that only grew up because they got a good dose of reality thrown in their faces, and not because they wanted to, much less aspired to. It took Cloud becoming a wheel-chair bound vegetable for him to realize that maybe he should stop just thinking of himself all the time. Although, again, I have to give the game credit for not placing Cloud at the center of attention like they sort of did with FF VIII and certainly did with FF X. But it took the brainless action movie Advent Children for the main characters to become the badasses I would have liked seeing in the game. As for the game lacking in BIG BOMBASTIC MICHAEL BAY EXPLOSION SEQUENCES, well... honestly, I don't find that worth even commenting on. FF XII had a great intro sequence that set the stage for the game, and a nice ending sequence that tied most things up neatly and just the way I like it. FF X's ending wasn't necessarily bad, but it was shortened to make way for maybe the only FF game that is worse than VIII; namely X-2. And if it'll make you feel better, X-2 was a good deal worse than VIII; so much, in fact, that I turned it off after a couple of hours' worth of gameplay, after which I sold it and promised myself to forget it ever existed. FF VIII's ending, though, was decent enough, I guess, but the less said about VII's ending, the better. It was so lacking, they needed a CG movie to make up for it. Let's see. I already said Squall was Cloud 2.0, so I don't see why you are even making that point. It's not even in contention. As for how they come to actually grow and chance...did you miss the part of how they each go through the Hero's Journey? The classic trial through which all heroes travail? Enjoy this very detailed explanation: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MonomythHmm....Cloud and Squall seem to fit that bill pretty well, eh? While a pair of moody bastards, they each basically follow the Hero's Journey to the letter, thus they are built as classic heroes with full scopes and depth. Say what you will about not liking them, you cannot deny they each take this journey, which is my point in comparrison to Vaan, and since you insist on including her, Ashe. Neither of these tools really do anything. Vaan may seem to take the Hero's Journey, but as you say later on...the "adults" push the "kids" aside because it's time to stop playing games, etc etc...we'll come back to this at the appropriate response moment. XII opening scene...yeah, it sets the scene for a boring game. Wedding of peace destroyed by war. People dying in war. Let's stop war. Let's stop war without taking any sort of personal journies that expand on our characters. Let's ground ourselves in reality Let's have a villain that is really not that bad of a villain, just a guy with an opposing point of view. Let's get away from ethereal beings controling us (that is about as close at it gets to something interesting)...again, I'll come back to this at the appropriate response moment. I'd forgotten you're a X-2 hater. I'm sorry, but even that game's premise is far far far more interesting than XII: the trials of a world rebuilding itself, many many tales of personal discovery and character growth, the classic quest for love lost, and of course sexy girls in sexy outfits But I digress. Endings eh? VII...the world saved itself. Pretty straight forward, and a real twist at the time. Nothing lacking there. We have people placed up against the fact of how powerful nature can truly be, and in a fantasy setting that nature sometimes has a will of its own. Then we learn that even time heals all wounds....yeah...so lacking. The creation of AC had nothing to do with tying up ends or validating an ending...it was created to make money on what is considered a fan favorite game. Let's not make it out to be anything more than it was. VIII's ending. Gee...world freed from a vicious cycle of slavery and manipulation, a celebration of family and friends, and two people celebrating the love they have discovered. Yeah...the game's entire premise was built on the idea of Love, so yeah, they dropped the ball there. There was no holding true to its ideals at all. And here's the biggest problem I had with FF X: the main characters. Specifically Tidus, who, at the very least, isn't a whiner. But the game just sets him up as someone whom everyone eventually just becomes characters to cater to his whims, because lord knows he might just start crying if they didn't. Ironically, though, he's actually not generally as useless as Cloud and Squall, who spends most of their first parts respectively just shrugging off anything or ignoring it until something really big happens. FF X was also the first Playstation FF game that made me wonder why any of the side cast weren't the main characters; like Auron, who is indeed a badass, or Lulu, whose snarkiness I just loved. But hey, if you want a cynical badass as a main lead, how about Ryudo from Grandia 2. Ok, so he doesn't have a huge, overcompensating sword to his name, but his wit is far sharper than Cloud, Squall and Tidus' put together. Lord knows he might start crying if they don't cater to his whims? What? Again I refer you to the Hero's Journey. Tidus fits into it as well. Story telling and character development...something the other games have and XII fails to do. You're giving your opinions at this point, not fact. You have yet to disprove anything I've said concerning their characters and depth of developments, which in the end is what this is all about, not whether or not you like Cloud, Squall, or Tidus. The game facts are all there: when it comes to character growth, story depth, and plain old game flow, all those games have it and XII drops the ball half way through. Again you have yet to provide evidence that disputes it despite opinion...and who cares about Ryudo He's not an FF hero nore part of a FF story, thus not pertinent to this debate. Compared to those, however, Vaan wasn't even half as irritating, because HE WASN'T THE MAIN CHARACTER. Sure, he was the one you first started playing as, just as Locke (well, technically Terra, but...) was the first you started playing as in FF VI. The part I really find amusing about the whole deal is that Vaan wasn't even supposed to be in the game at all. Originally, Ashe and Basch were the ones who the story was supposed to revolve around -- which it still kind of does -- but then the producers were afraid that people would abandon the game because it doesn't have a teenage main character in it, hence the arrival of Vaan. Now, it's true that this made the story flow more clunkily than needed, mostly because they had to accomodate for his prescense, but the game itself handled that pretty well, I think. And I liked it even more BECAUSE Vaan wasn't the center of attention the whole time. Sure, he had some stakes in this, but for once, we had an RPG where the kiddies had to step aside, because the adults had business to attend to. And for what it's worth, I rather liked that Vaan didn't go around acting like everything around him revolved around himself, plus his sibling-like relationship with Penelo was actually quite refreshing, what with the two of them growing up together and also looking after all the young kids in the poorer areas of their home city. In many ways, Vaan's actions makes him far the bigger hero than Cloud or Squall, who spent most of the time at the beginning acting only if they got paid or if "duty" called for it, even if they didn't really want to themselves. Tidus, to his credit, at least shares some of the same ambitions of better heroes, so I don't want to be too hard on him. As for the whole part about Vaan wanting to be a sky pirate, yeah, that was... not good. Although I'd like to add that FF XII seems to have a tenuous grasp of what a pirate really is. I'd think "rogue" would be a better description. Aaahhhh. And we come to some very key points to which you are actually making my points for me. Vaan. Everything you say about him and Ashe is true...which is exactly why FF XII EPIC FAILS. These goobers had no idea what they were doing from beginning to end...they could not even make up their minds who was the lead character! How are you going to write a story when you don't even really know who it is about. The other games were about their leading men, and in X's case also about Yuna, who is perfectly portrayed, grown, and developed as a leading lady as opposed to the severely lacking portrayal of Ashe. I find your defense of Vaan's role in things, and thus he makes a better character than the other three...well, lame. So, the story isn't about him, he has little influence on well just about everything, he's just a kid so who cares what he thinks, he's got a sweet relationship with Penelo cuz they grew up poor, and he has a pretty low sense of anything because he still wants to be an air pirate. Yeah...all three other guys take the Hero's Journey, become leaders of men that shoulder burdens of destiny, and grow as human beings by the end of the story. Oh yeah...Vaan is so much a greater character than they are. The dumbass never does a damn thing, and neither does Ashe. Her development is only slightly more out there, and then not by much. She never changes or grows. She is the same through the entire game. She doesn't even take a Heroine's Journey. Historically, the game had flaws too. Remember, I said I liked it better than VII, VIII and X, but that doesn't mean the game is without its share of issues. True, the story could have done without the whole backstory of those spiritual/alien/whatever beings that pulled the strings from the shadows, but for once, it's a game that's steeped more in realism, with political elements vying for positions and the fact that you had to keep this in mind when you travelled around the game world. And for once, the game wasn't about just one character and his main love interest again. (Although you could make a point that, since Aeris went and got herself killed, neither did FF VII, even with the addition of the movie.) Again, you're making my point for me, and not really taking my arguements apart. FF XII fails in story presentation...one of the primary things that makes an RPG. You say the story could have done without the spritual backgrounds...yet that was the only thing that for a moment gave the game potential to break out of the mundane crap it was peddling up to that point. The game has a chance to break free from the ordinary and become fantasy, which is what most are playing this for. I, and I garner most gamers, are not playing an RPG meant to take place in a world of High Adventure and Fantasy, to be stepped and mired in a dragging political storyline that loosly mirrors real world crap. I wanna keep up with current events, I'll watch the news like I do every evening. I want to lose myself in High Adventure, I'm going to play a game that has nothing to do with reality. That's why I stopped watching that wreaking piece of shit Battlestar Galactica, may it be forgotten a hundred years from now. I'd also grant the FF VII game that it had a lot of interesting things on the side to do. Some of these minigames were actually quite fun, certainly a nice distraction from the continuous "ZOMG WE HAVE TO GO GET SEPIROTH BECAUSE HE WANTS TO CRASH A METEOR INTO THE PLANET", except... dude, do you really have time for fun and games when there's something like this at stake? Seriously, put that basketball down and get the hell out of Golden Saucer. What? You want to go snowboarding for balloons first? Bah, kids today. They have no sense of priorities, I tell ya. Besides, the Lunar games didn't really have a lot in the way of sidequests either, so what's your point? My point was merely made to highlight how little else the game had to offer, hence it was under my Gameplay and Extras heading, thus having nothing to do with my story or characters arguement, so let's not get those confused, okay? They are seperate points that only relate by the fact that exist in XII and combine to make it a piece of crap. And I just LOVE how you go into how the war in XII doesn't "threaten the world as a whole". No, but it sure will make life difficult for a lot of people and cause a lot of lost lives in the war itself, never mind the aftermath. I'm sorry if that's not BAD enough or EPIC enough for you, or not a worthy enough of a cause to try to stop it from happening. I guess the HUGE HULKING battleships that fly around the world threatening destruction by lasers or the judges that go around mercilessly slaughtering anyone who gets in their way just isn't worth getting out of bed for in the morning, even if your brother was either caught up in or taking part in a political betrayal that threw countries into war with each other and lost a princess her kingdom merely for being caught up in the middle of it. Also, Fran wasn't thrown out of the village. She chose to leave, with the full understanding that if she did, she could never be a part of the village again. And she wasn't the only Viera to do so. (There was one thing that puzzled me, though; the Viera was a race of bunny-eared people -- ok, amusing enough -- but the thing that got me taken aback was that all of them were basically adolescent females. No males, and no kids or old people among them. There was also this village with these large, muscular beings that all wore masks, which was some kind of mirror image of the Viera village; all big, brawny males, and no children, but supposedly some elderly, even if it was kind of hard to tell, what with all of them wearing masks.) Also, Basch willingly went to jail because, as far as I remember, if he didn't, it would only escalate things, simply because he wouldn't have been able to prove his innocence otherwise, which would just make things worse for his allies and what they were trying to fight for. On the flipside, Balthier might not have the most interesting backstory, but he more than makes up for it with his insight to how most things work and his suave, James Bond-like personality, which is actually pretty cool. Mmmmmm. I smell meat in this issue. Let's dig in. I already started to counter this point a couple of statements ago. War. Indeed, it is a classic plot device that I myself use when telling a story. But that's just it...it's a plot device for telling a REAL story, not a half assed attempt at telling a story like in XII. And, as I just said, it's nothing but a plot device, one which the FF franchise would do well to steer clear from since it obviously cannot handle it. So XII makes the case that War is Hell. Okay. What else is new? War is a terrible and devestating thing, and when it happens it is indeed something to write about. But it can't be the only thing. As I said before, XII had a brief chance to blow the whole game open and take us down a truly fantasy arc when we learn there are higher beings busy at playing gods. But just as quickly as they introduce it, they quash it and drag us down back to a boring story about war and how bad it is. Last time I checked we're playing RPGs for fantastical stories that stretch the imagination, wow our sense of disbelief, and draw us in with characters we tend to grow very very attached to. XII fails in all of these aspects. We're not playing games to be reminded of how bad war is, or how much devestation it causes. That's something we all already get. Why should it be forced down our throats when we're just trying to relax and have a good time? You say you're sorry that it's not epic enough for me, well, the way XII portrayed it, it wasn't. By laying out a story of war driven by natural desires that we see in the Real World, that we see portrayed in wars all through out history, where's the good story telling? This is a freaking videogame based in a world where magic exists along side giant nasty monsters? You telling me they could not come up with a better idea than regular political agendas with a very very ghostly hint of supernatural interference? Please. They did it every other time, they just failed to the maximum here. I'm not going to bother responding to the character stuff at the end, because I've already made my cases as to why they fail, and you still have not made a case where I am wrong in the other games. They don't grow themselves, and they do nothing to grow the rest of the characters in the cast, therefore, they fail. One thing I really liked about FF XII, however, was the battle engine. No, I've never actually played XI, but, so what if the setup itself is slightly reminiscent of that game? When you get down to it, the only difference is that there's no more random encounters, but rather, you're walking around in a large, very believable world with a lot of different beings in it. And odd Viera naming customs aside (four random letters? What's up with that?), none of it really felt out of place. And here's the thing; the only part of the battle engine that's different, if you discount the fact that there's no random encounters, is that you can move any characters at will during battle. Other than that, it's the same business as in the earlier games that makes use of the action bar premise. You choose the attacks or the magic or the items, and the characters do what you tell them to. Except now, distance to enemies actually factor in, which makes the battles more interesting. And, if you don't feel like keeping an eye on all of them, you can have a gambit system do basic controls for the others. ("Basic" expanding to "fairly thorough" if you take the time to expand it.) As eliddell has so nicely put while I have been writing this...the game mechanics turn XII into nothing more than a button mashing action RPG. Part of the classic FF charm is the real menu based battle system. And I'm sorry, but there is no challenge or ingenuity in programing your party members (or Macroing the commands as we MMOer's say). Congratulations, your party is on autopilot while you have the freedom to run around and hit monsters from all angles. The Gambit system is a piece of basic crap that further allows lazy people to put a game on auto pilot and Easy Mode. No real strategy is required, no real stress in the lame fights. Such an engine works in FF XI and not XII because your other party members there are living, breathing people capable of really making full use of characters, not just turning them all into cookie cutter persons who are all using the same weapon, casting the same buffs, programmed to use healing magic whenever. Again we come to the unoriginality of everything that makes of XII and it's characters. It'd boring and there is not strategy...not to mention outside one or two summons, as well as a couple of hunts that in the end don't mean a hill of beans, there was not a single fight in that game that was above Easy Mode where a five year old could have beaten it....and I did not even really power level in that game...and you all know I'm a level whore. Phew. Almost done. As for the clothing, I have no comment. Honestly, pretty much all RPGs suffer this same flaw: it has our characters wear the exact same in scorching deserts as in freezing, icy wastes -- which is why I made a joke about that in my Lunar EB Let's Play. That said, why wouldn't it make sense that two characters wouldn't be able to wear the same kind of armor? Is there some cosmic RPG law that states that shops must carry individual equipment pieces for EVERY SINGLE PERSON ON THE PLANET? How the hell does THAT make any sense? Hell, even Lunar had the good sense of realizing that maybe, just maybe, whatever Hiro could wear, so could Leo.. or even Ronfar. I always find it so ludicrous when weapon and armor stores carry items specifically designed for one hero, and one hero alone. It might make a little more sense when it comes to weapons, but there is no excuse when it comes to protective gear. Granted, FF XII might be a little bit too ridiculous with it, having everyone being able to use everything, but just for the sake of diplomacy, let's just pretend that they have slightly different types of armor pieces of the same type, like... say, some fitted for women and others for men. It's not like dressing up people in different kinds of armor have ever changed the way they look onscreen in almost all cases of JRPGing. (This was actually one of the things Rogue Galaxy got right.) You're making this too easy for me. Once again you're applying this idea that the mundane approach to how XII tackled everything was good. Here's a question for you. What makes heroes and their companions badasses, seperating them from the rest of the normal fighting masses? Answer: Special Skills, Custom Equipment, and the difference in their overall abilities that allow them to do the awesome things they do. Going by your assessment, being a hero is just about the mindset, and has nothing to do with what you wear or do. In real life, maybe, but again we come back to my point that we are playing in worlds where the truly impossible tends to happen. Heroes and their allies become such because they have super human abilities that the normal shlubs don't. They specialize in fancy weapons, using custom skills and abilities that allow them to kick ass. And then depending on their special weapons of choice, they are forced to wear appropriate armor and gear. A fencer who uses a rapier is not going to get into full plate armor like a knght who wields a claymore or a broadsword. The fencer needs his speed an agility on his side to win, which would be hampered in full armor. Same with an archer. Fran starts out as an Archer, and let's say you keep her in that roll the entire game...and then have her in full plate gear like lets say Vaan. Oh yeah...that screams functionality. While prudent for safety reasons, she can't be an archer...oh wait...it's fixed because we can give her a sword and now she's frontline!! Wait again....where's the personality? Where's that specialization that makes them heroes? Where's that above and beyond ordinary skill that makes them true badasses like the true individuals in the other three games who have specialties with weapons...thought granted for all those games the idea of armor was pretty much done away with. However, that does not change the arguement of how lacking these dinks are as heroes. In such games where's the point in classifying yourself as a hero if every other chump can wear the same gear you are in the world and use it just the same. Epic Fail. Anyway, honestly, I think this will do. While I rather liked PLAYING FF XII, I don't think it's quite worth getting this worked up about, as it's a decent game. Yes, it's flawed, but I honestly don't get this unbridled hatred for it when it's hardly worse than any other FF game since they moved over to the Playstation and suddenly found out that they had the power to make the games larger, louder and more bombastic. And we all know just how much THAT is worth, right? Oh come now. You're not going to back out just as we're getting started here, are you? This is only the second salvo, my first having barely gotten me started. It's pretty clear I'm looking to pick a fight (which has nothing to do with you personally), and I'm not gonna lie...but I've kept it clean without personal attacks, so I'm not ashamed to say so. And just to rub it in how much FF XII is fail...I give you this to illustrate it: Mmmm. Feels good. And to at least marginally stay on topic: picked up Sins of the Solar Empire yesterday. Gonna see how that goes.
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Post by Ambrienne on Sept 18, 2009 15:04:50 GMT -5
Now that I've had a chance to go back over FFXII's soundtrack more thoroughly, I find that it reminds me most of Wagner and Debussey. Strong at times, almost pompous. And at other times, a bit too, well... atmospheric. I think that, if it had a few more clearly defined themes of its own, it would have been a lot better. ::gets back into the bomb shelter to watch the impersonal missiles fly by, wondering if they're nukes:: I'd tell you what game I've been playing lately, but... I've been reading books for about two and a half weeks straight (when I haven't been watching Get Smart episodes). Tell me, what's a game again? I'll be playing Disgaea 2: DHD at least until the PSP Persona translation comes out later this month. Which reminds me... There's going to be a Persona 3 PSP with the option of choosing a female lead. And, of course, new music for her. My soundtrack senses are tingling. He, he...
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Post by northlander on Sept 18, 2009 16:47:12 GMT -5
Hey now. No need to take a pot shot at me. I didn't make any references to you. I kept my post strictly about the games. No worries. It's not like I think any worse of you personally. That comment was just a reply to your "lay a smackdown on me" comment, which, I assume, was directed at me, since you included my quote. And the "bark/bite" comment was directed at the post above mine, not necessarily everything you've been talking about. Anyway, let's see.... While I don't have your personal ties to FF IV, I can see where you're coming from with this. FF IV is, indeed a very good game. That said, I'm going to include other RPGs when I damn well want to, because I don't think it's wrong to hold FF games up to the standard of non-FF RPG games. That said, I didn't really talk all THAT much about non-FF RPG games, so it's a fairly moot point anyway. Besides, Ellidell made a pretty good point about Suikoden 2, I believe. I mean... yeah, I think you both are still being overly bitchy about FF XII, but I'm not arguing that Suikoden 2 is a better game than FF XII and the games that fall below it. You said, and I quote: "Cut scenes few and far between, none of them even approaching the fantastic moments of FF X's really big scenes...the only really interesting one being the fleet battle at the end...woopie. The opening scene of FF X destroys that all by itself. " Let's see, the opening of FF X being... the Blitzball game quickly being interrupted by the city going up in flames because of Sin, aka The Bringer Of Hugeass Explosions. I may be wrong, but among your shining examples -- even in XII's defense -- seems to be battle scenes filled with destruction and possibly lots of redshirt death. So was FF X, admittedly, both of them being PS2 games. Honestly, VIII's graphics are quite fine for being PS1 games just as Lunar EB's graphics are fine for being Sega CD games. VII's graphics, however, could use some work. The only thing it had over the other two FF games would probably be the screen resolution. Those vectors may look kind of monocrome, but they sure are smooth. But you're right in that the graphics doesn't necessarily make the game, so... Open mind = convenient argument against people who doesn't like your favorite whatever's. Where's that "open mind" when it comes to his Blitzball opinions, then? I'll comment on the editorial once you make some about Spoony's many descriptions about how FF VIII fails. And yet you complained about FF XII's lack of challenge. What you're mentioning is basically XII's neat little touch, its way of saying "you sure you wanna go take on that huge-ass T-Rex in the background there? Better think that over for a while and return when you're strong enough". In contrast, I just found FF X's enemies annoying, because they basically put restrictions about who you could use on which enemies, at least at most of the first game. Although you learn pretty fast who you need to use Auron on, or who you need to use Lulu's magic on, it's kind of annoying to be lead by the hand this way. Where is your explorer's spirit? And despite my messing-up with using the word "labyrinthine", I still stand by what I said; FF X is so damn focused that you're not even allowed to experiment any. The game plainly states -- with a tutorial you're not even allowed to skip -- what you need to do. You don't even get much in the way of shperes that let you travel where you want to on the levelling grid, hence kind of negating the whole "experimenting" feel of the game. MAYBE using the pro grid fixes that issue. If I ever get around to replaying that game, I'll try it. Anyway, you can still powerlevel if you feel like it, but you better be prepared to run back and forth on the same roads a lot to do it, because the path doesn't diverge a hell of a lot, and there's not a whole lot of open areas or branching paths either. The summoner's temples were a few rays of light, though, if only because they at least diverted the monotony with some puzzles. And yet Vaan became what he aspired to be in the end because, for what it's worth, he didn't actually quit or turn away. I just stated that he wasn't the only reason for the story to progress. Like FF VI, each character had their own stakes to fulfill. Ashe regained her kingdom by the end, Vaan became what he wanted to be, Basch cleared his name and regained his honor and Balthier settled the score he had with his father, thus gaining his freedom. As for Fran, she began her "hero's journey" the second she set foot out of her home village. It's strange of you not to acknowledge that. You DID play through the game, right? The difference is that none of the characters could think just about themselves, but through their efforts, they all succeeded with their goals. So, just for examples sake, I'm going to superimpose... oh, Ashe... over your "hero's journey". 1. The Call to Adventure Her homeland is invaded, and the princess -- who are thought dead -- sets out on a journey to reclaim her lands in the name of her slain husband and for revenge. It's a clear call, and there is not much hesitation in her heart. 2. Supernatural Aid We learn that, to reclaim her lands, she needs the Dawn Shard from the tomb of Raithwall, so I guess you could call his history and left-behind powers the start of what Ashe needs to do to answer her call. 3. The Crossing of the First Threshold Well, maybe Ashe just doesn't care about doing things in order, because she had already crossed that threshold when we meet her in the sewers of Rabanastre. She's already out on her quest, and has already cast the shell of the princess aside to become the avenger and reclaimer of her property. 4. Initiation - The Road of Trials/The Meeting With the Goddess/Woman as Temptress/Atonement with the Father/Apotheosis/The Ultimate Boon Whoo, biblical. Anyway, this pretty much encompasses the majority of the game. The road of trials is basically finding out about the powers she needs to complete her task. The meeting with the goddess is quite neatly symbolized by her meeting with the spirits behind it all, the ones who still want to stay behind the lines pulling the strings and the ones who provide Ashe with the treaty blade, thus the means to take her destiny in her own hands, whatever that may be. The "Woman as temptress" is the ghostly apparitions of her dead husband, who appears in front of her from time to time, urging her to take revenge for what was done to him (which is kind of a contrast compared to the kind of man he was in the intro.) Atonement with the father, Apotheosis and the ultimate boon is more or less lumped into one when Ashe plunges the sword into the only other source of power (thus making sure noone can use them), casts away her desires for revenge -- which was the only act the power she sought could support -- and becomes the princess her country needs. 5. Return - The Crossing of the Return Threshold/Master of Two Worlds/Freedom to Live Returning to the country wasn't the hard part. Returning to the kingdom, however, was, as the Empire set out the Bahamut to end things once and for all. Ashe, with the aid of her friends, put an end to the monstrosity, thus returning her country and her countrymen to the freedom they had before all this started. Yes, let's stop war. Let's stop war without taking any sort of personal jour... oh, wait she did. They all did. Let's ground ourselves in reality. Let's have a vilain that is really not that bad of a villain... except he's taking over the world by way of destruction without a care for who might get in the way, neatly helped by the judges who kill without remorse, and all to help his brother, apparently. His brother... who wants him to stop doing what he does. Oh dear. No, he's not "all that bad". No, siree. And let's get away from the beings that uses all humans as playtoys for their own personal agendas. *skipping the part about X-2, because... well...* But where is the romance? Did that die when Aeris took a sword through her chest? What about poor Tifa? Come to think of it, the movie didn't really go into that a whole lot either. Damn you, mindless action movie. Hmm. I'm pretty sure I had no complaints about the ending of FF VIII. Was I too eager with the 'I' key when marking Roman numerals, perhaps? No, doesn't seem like I did. Oh, relax. It was just a little jab towards Tidus. Because, y'know, he's a crybaby and all. Nothing really wrong with that, though. ^^ I'd say the summation of Ashe above here fits the bill pretty nicely. And yet, he goes through your precious Hero's Journey too. Who cares if the game he is in isn't a FF game? They're as much "lead characters" as the ones in FF VI. The game brings them together because they have a common cause, and they go out on that journey because they all need to. Vaan might have wanted to be a sky pirate (or something like that), but his journey is just as much initiated because of what happened to his brother at the beginning of the game. And that's wrong because...? Except neither of them really become leaders. Cloud, after the end of VII, apparently heads out on a personal zen journey. Sure, he and his group saved the world, as did the ones in VIII... and X, and XII, because the characters in it did what they had to. Squall MIGHT have become the leader of his particular garden, or maybe he just continues to be a... well, whatever they called it... what he was at the beginning of the game. Tidus, admittedly, made one hell of a sacrifice at the end of the game, which earns him some respect at least. As for Ashe, she becomes, as I noted, the leader of her country, with new allies she didn't have before she set out on that journey of hers that you said she didn't take. Yes, she did. As did he, and they both got what they wanted and more. You "garner most gamers" would. Care to back up that statement with "facts"? Apparently, I don't agree, as does (or rather, doesn't) a lot of other people. Never watched Battlestar Galactica, so can't comment on that. However, there's nothing wrong with a little dose of reality, even in a fantasy game. I'm not saying VII, VIII or X doesn't have that, but XII has its own way of going about things... which you obviously didn't like. Oh well.... This part is so rife with your personal opinion on what you want in your games, while I myself don't mind the odd change every now and then. But you continue to insist that I think XII is an awesome game. It's not. But it's an entertaining game, at least for me, and all I really said was that I thought it was better than the others I mentioned. At any rate, this is as far as I'll take it, because I refuse to waste any more time on writing walls of text that will just be summarily ignored because they don't suit your tastes. One more thing, though: Which you don't have to use if you don't want to. I just love people who complain about stuff that can be turned off, because it just turns into complaining for complaining's sake. Which, again, you don't have to use. And if you choose not to, the game becomes the same kind of menu-driven combat game you should already be familiar with in FF VII, except the heroes and enemies don't prepare for battle by lining up neatly in a row. You say that, but you can't rely on the same gambits being useful throughout the entire game. You'll have to change those around too, and adapt to whichever enemies you face. I've already talked about the combat of FF X earlier. FF VII doesn't share this irritation, thankfully, and neither does FF VIII, but on the other hand, FF VIII limits your menu to four options only. Now there was a great idea. Right up there with the junctioning system. (Which is where I disagree with the article you linked to.) I mean... take a wild guess why they didn't go for that system again in any later FF games. It shouldn't be hard to figure out. I don't know about you, but I generally diversified my weaponry just for fun. No "everyone using the same weapons" on my team. Neither did I with VII, VIII and X. VII I completed on my first go, with VIII I got so bored midways that I restarted the game from the beginning to see if there was anything else I could do. (Although that's a habit I have with a lot of JRPGs. Call it a weird quirk of mine.) As for X, there MIGHT have been a few battles where I barely got through by the skin of my teeth, but otherwise, it wasn't much of a problem. Y'know, you complained about the summons being useless in XII, and that's true enough, but the summons in FF X are way too powerful for their own good. Although maybe the last boss would have been a challenge if I hadn't taken the time to get a few of the legendary weapons. I later restarted FF X, this time powerlevelling up the wazoo, and the game pretty much became a joke. So no, you don't get to lord XII's lack of difficulty over me, at least not compared to X. But honestly, all FF games have lacked in difficulty since FF VI, so this isn't really a unique problem. Really? Well, I guess it's good SOMEONE is having a good time. If by "mundane", you mean including everyone instead of just thinking ME ME ME, then yes, you are certainly right. It is not about what you wear, that's true, but it's definitely about what you do. But also that you overcome your trials regardless of what powers you have or what powers you have to face. And trust me, if you're taking a sword through your stomach, the size of it isn't going to matter, because you'll be good and defeated anyway. Granted, we're talking about games where you can be revived from the dead and where you do damage ratings in numbers. And again, you are basically saying that FF XII isn't flashy enough for you. I don't know about you, but gigantic swords and custom armor just screams flashiness. That said, you still get your gigantic (and varied) enemies in FF XII too. Some of them, like the tyrant dragons, easily look as awesome as anything you'd find in any other game. But, again, this is a difference of opinions, so it's a pointless argument to continue. It's called "versatility". You should try it some time. I actually had Fran as a "lancer" on my second playthrough. She actually looks kind of awesome with a spear. (I kind of messed up on the whole "don't open those chests" part, though, so I couldn't get the Dragon's Whisker. ) Uh.. because they succeeded in their goals without limiting themselves with whatever gear they were "expected" to wear? And that's a bad thing because...? Wear it? Maybe. I'm sure most people could probably hold the sword Cloud uses, but whether they'd be able to use it, that solely depends on their combat training. You and I can hold a sword, but that doesn't mean we automatically know how to use it. Sure was. Well, then, fire away again. I'm sure I've given you plenty to... uh, getting fired up about. I generally don't like to pick fights, but I can stand for it if I feel it's worth my time. However, this one just feels like so much wasted time, mostly because I'm just defending a game that I feel is a bit of an underdog compared to other -- and, in my opinion, less deserving -- FF games. But whatever. I may answer some of your most fervent attacks later, but there will be no more large blocks of text from me. Yes, most people like to revel in their own perceived victory. .... I do so too, occasionally. But, my god, I used anywhere between two to three hours on this. Do you know how much of my Lunar Let's Play I could have made with that time?
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Post by Roas on Sept 18, 2009 19:02:50 GMT -5
First, I'm going to say I do not appreciate the subtle personal jabs you are taking at me simply because I seem to be irritating you with what I'm saying. Not once have I slandered or taken a shot at you on any personal level, yet in that last post I counted at least three times you leveled some at me. I've kept this purely about the games. So I'm going to ask civily one more time that you stop. I'm going to talk all the poison I want about XII, but I'm not making this personal. Otherwise, I'm going to skip quoting for the most part because I don't feel like spending another hour on a post again. I'll try and be brief, but excuse me if I miss countering a few points here and there: 1- Other games do not count because this is not a discussion about other games. This is a discussion about FF games compared to other FF games. I started this debate on that premise, not to say that a Grandia game or Lunar is any better than an FF game. Never once am I placing FF above anything other game, saying they destroy all. As I said to Ambrienne, I happen to think VII is overrated and VIII failed it's potential, but that does not mean I cannot argue that they are superior in structure and overall play to XII. So yeah, I don't think it's fair to talk about other games, because this is not about other franchises. This is about four FF games. 2- My references of the Cut Scenes were about story moments, not the bombasticy you seem to think I deem necessary to make a good game. Through VIII and X the varying bevy of cut scenes were given to us at great interval moments to drive home important moments of the game as well as provide many a memorable moment. XII, with the exception of that final air battle scene at the end, lacks any memorable set of scenes that help shape truly climactic moments that stick in the head. 3- Cheap shot number one concerning my comment about the guy in the editorial having an open mind. The man simply gave VIII a chance. To me that's having an Open Mind...that has nothing to do with the fact he thinks Blitzball sucks. That has nothing to do with being open minded. He didn't like it, so whatever. I disagree with him. Doesn't change the fact he was right to not take a dump all over VIII because he hated it as a kid and turns out he liked it as an adult. 4- XII's neat little touch of having a Sandbox environment is exactly what makes it a failed RPG. There's nothing neat about it. Oh, can't fight that monster right now...better go grind some levels to get a worthless hunt over with for gear I can get at a later date doing something else. There's a difference between a non-linear RPG that lets you do things at strange orders and a Sandbox game that basically let's you run around areas for no good reason other than to kill a monster. Completing hunts provides no real bonus to the game other than some eventually outtdated equipment. There is no extra story, no character advancement, nothing but a lot of hassle for some gear. And I never said FF X wasn't easy if you were pumped up, nor did I make an issue that the late game summons were not overpowered. But they were at least classical summons beautifully designed (not Anima...ugly as Sin) compared to the monstrosities of XII. X had icons that were actually intrigral to the game...XII had abominations that were useless. 5- As far as my "precious" Hero's Journey goes, I think you are stretching it some to get Ashe to fit into it, and Vaan is still not fitting into it at all. Correct me if I am wrong, but as long as someone gets to the end of a journey and get what they want, you are classifying that they have gone through a Hero's Journey in your view? Ashe is the only one who remotely comes close by your breakdown, and even then I still say it's a stretch in some of the cases. Yes she was called to her adventure, but where was her reluctance? I would not call the whole Shard quest supernatural. She gets no guidence/mentor, and is not is she given powers or assisstance. She's collecting artifacts that are basically energy sources. I give you the Threshold because everyone is obviously out on the adventure. Where's her Belly of the Whale moment? She doesn't really change, does she? She still failts to evolve as any sort of character whatsoever. About all she does is change her view on vengeance, right? I don't think that quite fits the bill. Trials, I give you that one too. Getting the shards is obviously a trial, but again where does she grow as a character? Where's the real flushing out? With the exception of her whole vengeance issue, where's her real development? She remains bland and unnattractive as a leading character. Yeah she sorta has the Goddess moment, but again we come back to the failure of the game by not really running with anything spiritual to expand it's mundaneness. Temptress, yes there, but very weak and lame. She was not lured to stay anywhere if memory serves, just about intentions. She struggles with only two things: country and vengeance, both of which are still poorly developed. The rest you've kinda just lumped together, but they don't lump together. She doesn't do any of that really. There is no attonement moment, the boon is of course achieved at the end, but not by any spectacular or truly heroic means. There is no true Return moment, she has no master of two worlds moment: I saw no moment where she reaches a balance that allows her to reach greater heights, there is no Rescue moment required or intiated, yes there is a Recrossing the Threshold, but again that falls into the of course catagory. Again I give you Freedom to live, but again it's an of course considering she does acheieve a goal....but alot of that required a bit of forcing to fit into the catagories. I am gonna quote this one: Yes, let's stop war. Let's stop war without taking any sort of personal jour... oh, wait she did. They all did. Let's ground ourselves in reality. Let's have a vilain that is really not that bad of a villain... except he's taking over the world by way of destruction without a care for who might get in the way, neatly helped by the judges who kill without remorse, and all to help his brother, apparently. His brother... who wants him to stop doing what he does. Oh dear. No, he's not "all that bad". No, siree. And let's get away from the beings that uses all humans as playtoys for their own personal agendas.
*skipping the part about X-2, because... well...* What journey? Revenge and to free her country? Where's her real personal journey? Where's the relationships with other people? Something with Bashe mabye, but that's it. Where's the connection to other people? Where's the growth as a character? She does absolutely nothing. And trying to destroy the world? I'm sorry, I never saw anything about world destruction in this game. We do not even see the entire world in this wannabe RPG. There is a whole are of the game we are never even allowed to enter. Yeah, that's great world development and story telling. There was a war, but the war was not going to destroy the world. Yes it was tyrannical in some aspects, but the whatshisname villain was doing what he thought was best for his country. His malice was little and lame. As for the "beings"...they were in it for a mere moment. A totally wasted plot opportunity so that the mundane story could continue to be told without anything interesting to spark the imagination. But where is the romance? Did that die when Aeris took a sword through her chest? What about poor Tifa? Come to think of it, the movie didn't really go into that a whole lot either. Damn you, mindless action movie.
Sorry, I never said romance had to be a part of the story. VIII's entire concept was built around it, and it was a nice addition to X, but my bringing it up was simply a part of what made those games good. XII may not have it at all except with a ghost, but that's not something I hold against it. If it doesn't have it, it doesn't have it. It's not necessary to make a good game, only adds to one if it is there. So you're entire snarky comment there is pointless. Sigh, there's still so much ahead, I think I'm gonna lump some together and cut to the chase as I have other things I want to get to this evening: 1- the gameplay was a glorified solo MMO set up with little ingenuity for an experience RPG and MMO player. accept it. Honsetly, once you had the best buffs and a couple high powered spells, all one needed was three Gambits to jump around to for attack and healing. Lame and simple by any standard. 2- I did diversify, thanks, despite the game's propensity to make everyone the same. That did not stop me from still basically using the same three people over and over again because there was no reason not to, since the game did not require any real strategy to beat things outside some of the later hunts, which were pointless anyways unless you wanted to extend the excruciating time one was going to play the game. As I once said, if I wanted to fight a dragon for a couple of hours...I'd go back to FF XI where at least the accomplisments were real.
If by "mundane", you mean including everyone instead of just thinking ME ME ME, then yes, you are certainly right. Including everyone? A collection of bland characters whose personal stories and accomplishments amount to the level of getting a drink from the kitchen? There's a difference between the classic ensemble cast of FF VI and these chumps who do absolutley nothing of virtue to distinguish themselves in FF lore. I didn't see any of them put in Disidea, heh, just a Judge...and those bastards were some of the weakest villians I'd ever seen. It is not about what you wear, that's true, but it's definitely about what you do. But also that you overcome your trials regardless of what powers you have or what powers you have to face. And trust me, if you're taking a sword through your stomach, the size of it isn't going to matter, because you'll be good and defeated anyway. Granted, we're talking about games where you can be revived from the dead and where you do damage ratings in numbers. And again, you are basically saying that FF XII isn't flashy enough for you. I don't know about you, but gigantic swords and custom armor just screams flashiness. I always love the part where words are put in my mouth. Did I ever say I needed a game to be flashy? No. I basically said I needed the game to have PERSONALITY, which XII has none of in both design and spirit. You're the one who keeps bringing up the big sword thing as an issue, not me. I just bring up the point that heroes need to have some personality, and custom weapons, gear, and skills are part of that...something whcih XII has zero of. Facts are facts. It's called "versatility". You should try it some time. See, now that is just uncalled for. You're lucky I'm not a tyrant who bans people for being asses like that. I had Fran as a "lancer" on my one and only play through, and she was the same as everyone else. Wait again....where's the personality? Where's that specialization that makes them heroes? Where's that above and beyond ordinary skill that makes them true badasses like the true individuals in the other three games who have specialties with weapons...thought granted for all those games the idea of armor was pretty much done away with. However, that does not change the arguement of how lacking these dinks are as heroes. Uh.. because they succeeded in their goals without limiting themselves with whatever gear they were "expected" to wear? And that's a bad thing because...? "Without limiting themselves to gear etc etc." It's called having personality and character, something I've been continually saying none of them have, and you have yet to prove me wrong. These characters were all bland with zero personality and uniqueness that usually FF characters have. Things don't have to be flashy, but they sure do need to have something going for them if they are going to be interesting. This entire cast was flat out boring with nothing to give a player. They had not battle personalities, and their character developments were all but cliched and boring. Wear it? Maybe. I'm sure most people could probably hold the sword Cloud uses, but whether they'd be able to use it, that solely depends on their combat training. You and I can hold a sword, but that doesn't mean we automatically know how to use it.
Again you are failing to see the point. It's about being unique, havng personality. You try and rub the whole big sword thing in my face again, yet you fail to see that having heroes equipped as such is part of what makes them heroes, part of what makes them interesting and unique. There is absolutely nothing unique and interesting about any of the XII cast from their visuals to their personalities. They're forgettable...I don't even remember some of their names til you mention them, and my memory is usually great about that kinda stuff. Sure was.
Well, then, fire away again. I'm sure I've given you plenty to... uh, getting fired up about.
I generally don't like to pick fights, but I can stand for it if I feel it's worth my time. However, this one just feels like so much wasted time, mostly because I'm just defending a game that I feel is a bit of an underdog compared to other -- and, in my opinion, less deserving -- FF games. But whatever. I may answer some of your most fervent attacks later, but there will be no more large blocks of text from me.
Yes, most people like to revel in their own perceived victory.
....
I've decided to be done with this. The personal hostility you injected into this has soured me, and frankly I just don't want to deal with it. I was excited when I wrote the first response cuz I thought there was going to be a hearty straight up debate on the merits of the games, but that isn't happening. You're defending XII laced with personal shots at me because I assume I hit a nerve or something, while never once really refuting any of my points about the other games aside from your personal opinions.....many more of which you injected compared to me. I will take some victory beacuse you never really blew any holes in break downs of the other games compared to XII. Opinions upon opinions were the only things sloshed around here.
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Post by Anon Mous on Sept 18, 2009 21:42:10 GMT -5
Ahem.
ALL FINAL FANTASY'S SUCK!
;D
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Post by northlander on Sept 19, 2009 0:15:24 GMT -5
Maybe just as well. I wasn't really trying to get at you, but I guess this is just partially why I don't really engage in a lot of online debates. I felt you were being too harsh in judging the game based on a set of very specific criterias, which IS an opinion, but I'll take this as a learning experience all the same. (I actually went through my post trying to figure out what I might have said that you took personal. As it turns out, the ones you took as jabs are a lot like the ones I sometimes exchange (emphasis on "exchange") with my friends. Yeah, it might sound like an excuse, but I honestly was never angry or upset at you, and I was really trying to keep any personal jabs out of this. I guess this is just what happens when you don't have the facial expressions and tone of voice to go with the... well, the text. Personally, I think you're a stand-up guy, which is why I never took your threats and mock-bravado towards people on these boards as serious threats, and I guess that's why I subconsciously thought you'd not only mind, but return in kind. I didn't think you were the kind of guy who'd just ban people out of nowhere either, so that thought never really crossed my mind. From what I remember, most of the cinematics in FF VII were either made to introduce a place or to show some of the battle sequences where the game's normal graphics wouldn't quite cut it. So when I was coming from games like the aforementioned non-FF games, I thought it was fairly impressive as scenery goes, but the game itself felt rather.... loud and flashy for an RPG game, hence why I thought that the improved graphics and particularly the cinematics weren't necessarily doing the game any favors. Outside of that, the only moment that I can remember which had a cinematic sequence all to itself that wasn't directly threat/battle related were Aeris death, which, admittedly, hit me stone cold. The rest of the cinematic sequences were mainly battle or action scenes, or the aftermath of ones. FF VIII has the dance scene at the beginning and various key moments where something big moves. Oh, and the Edea assassination attempt. But that wasn't a huge deal to me, really. I only included it because you mentioned in passing that you thought XII didn't have any memorable scenes. (Although most of those were used for battles in XII too.) You might not realize it, but that's one cheap shot in my direction too. You're basically hinting under your breath that I never gave the game a chance to begin with because I "played it as a kid". Ok, it's a vague shot, but honestly, I gave the game an honest try, and I hope you didn't think otherwise. My expectations might have been soured slightly from VII, but I was really hoping this game would make up for that. Or leave them alone for later. Just because a monster might be roaming around in the general neighborhood doesn't mean that you HAVE to take it down now. I just found the fact that not all monsters in XII adheres to the "slightly increase in life and strenght the farther you go" code that is a general rule in all RPGs funny in retrospect. In that sense, only FF VII is any different, I think. To VII's credit, taking side quests awarded you with two added cast members, which, admittedly, was a nice touch. But all the others were the same; you completed side quests either for just the experience to or for the added chance of finding some gear. Or both. For me, who generally liked the game, the extra hunts gave me the opportunity to go up against some more great boss enemies. As far as I could remember, VIII had this extra dungeon that you didn't necessarily need to take, and only gave you... actually, I forgot what you could get from it. But you still complained about breezing through XII when I did the same with X. Well, almost. The difference in difficulty just came across as too similar for me not to find your complaint about the difficulty a bit odd. Ok, I did go overboard with my snarkiness here, and I apologize for that. But the thing is, I found that list a little bit too specific for me to feel that it should count as a disqualifier for whether someone is a worthy hero. Whether the characters in RPGs are following this list of yours to the letter is probably a bit up in the air. I was adding Ashe as an example here because I wanted you to see my point, but I should have just said that I didn't feel anyone had to follow that list so far to the letter to be considered a main character, while you did. That's where the opinions come into play, regardless of how factually the list is. When I reread my post prior to making this one, I actually thought you'd get me for this one too, but you seem to have taken it on face value. Anyway, he did do what he thought was best, yes, but that "best" included things like assassinating his father and willingly becoming a demon -- well, in a metaphorical sense, and his own words -- for said country, when there's no indication that this is necessary, other than the outside influence of the renegade spiritual beings who are urging these people to seek more power and throw the lands into chaos. I'm sure the residents of the empire wouldn't feel much in the way of changes or consequences, but the rest of the world sure did. Oddly enough, you might be one of the very few who actually thought that said beings should be played up. Every single other complaint I've heard about the game that weren't centered around the gambits or the skill board has been a litany of "those beings has got to go". But, maybe increasing their roles would have helped things, as you say. Not quite, and let me say this again; you don't have to use gambits. Seriously, if you (as in not you personally, but you as a potential player) don't like them, turn them off. I did the same with FF VII and VIII, actually, despite the whole setup with custom gear. However, unlike XII, VII and VIII choose to punish you for that; VII by making the last battle a "switch between three teams" right out of nowhere (although maybe not as much, since I got to choose whether I wanted to change between teams or not.) and VIII by basically picking three random characters for the final boss battle. (Although again, you'd at least always have the three used the most at some point anyway.) I'm going to drag non-FF RPGs into this again, but at least most JRPGs I've played just incorporates the whole team at all times whenever they're a part of the game. If they're going to give me the option of choosing whoever I want, I will most likely stick to the ones I do want to use. With FF X, I sort of got around that problem by basically using everyone in battle at least once, even if they jumped in only to defend or whatever else I could do that didn't kill enemies before I wanted to. This was the only way I could ensure that I was levelling my whole party (learning from my mistakes from VII and VIII), but it made the battles an almost as tedious chore as the one where I spent much time drawing magic every time I found a new source. The reason I felt I had to do this was basically that even if I only finished the fight with the three characters present, those three would not gain any more experience compared to if I had only used the three in front. (Never mind about the whole deal of building the summons as well.) I was a bit afraid that XII would follow route, but it didn't. You were free to use whoever you wanted whenever you wanted. I'm guessing you're referring to the very, very last guild hunt with this one, and I'm not arguing against that. This was one of XII's really dumb moves, partially because at some point during the battle, your damage dealing ratio gets limited automatically for some dumb reason. (To draw out an already ridiculously drawn out fight.) I've never taken down that particular hunt myself, since it's not really needed to finish the game, but it's dumb... and thankfully the only exception to the rule in this game. Well, you did bring up Cloud being a hero because he had the ability to hold a sword that's almost bigger than himself, but... maybe I was just putting too much stock into that statement, so... never mind, I guess. Ok, yeah, you got me there. Again, I apologize. In what way? Honestly, this is the one thing I just don't understand you on. See, with VII, the magic you junction is what decides what powers you have, and although someone like Aeris might make a slightly better magician -- but not a whole lot -- characters like her gets bogged down because they're not allowed to choose their weaponry. It's the same with VIII, only there, you are basically encouraged to use summons for the better part of the game as well. (Especially with the arthrisis-inducing boost skill added to it.) In fact, VIII dispensed with the need for equipment upgrades, saved for a rather cumbersome way of upgrading weapons, mainly because you were expected to deal with the junctioning system instead. And with X, the sphere board was pretty much the deciding factors in how strong your characters are. The weapons themselves only added various effects to your attacks, like letting you take down armored beings more easily. But again, that shouldn't matter, because the choice of weaponry shouldn't count in the main story itself. (Although XII does, to some extent, imply what the favored weapon of each character is. You just don't have to follow that setup.) This is an argument of characterisation, not choice of weaponry or skills, as you've already opinionated on with your own rule-set of choice, which, let me add, didn't necessarily say that the hero in question had to kill or even just defeat anyone to become said hero. (Although since the main part of RPGs are spent fighting, that's probably a necessity.) The only part in this that seems to be an issue is that it doesn't matter which weapons the characters choose in FF XII, and I still fail to see the relevance of that. You don't see Ashe as a hero based on your own criteria for what a hero should be, so there's nothing I can really do to convince you outside of what I've already done. ...and... I remembered them just fine. And I'm sorry, but you did make Cloud's sword one of your selling points, portraying him as badass for being able to wield a sword that size and performing attack combos like the omnislash. Now, Cloud and Squall are technically soldiers, so it's a given that they'd come across as more of a warrior type than... say, Vaan and Penelo, who are more like streetsmart kids with mostly self-learned fighting skills. We already know that Basch is a soldier, or a knight if you will, and Ashe, princess though she may be, can easily handle a sword herself. I could always make it a flip argument, saying that Selphie hardly comes across as the fighting type either, and neither does people like Aeris. Cid (from VII) isn't strictly a fighter, but I can at least buy him holding his own in battle if he needs to. (He's actually my favorite character in VII, if that counts for anything.) Those are character setups, however, and shouldn't count for how well these people are at fighting. For teenagers like Vaan and Penelo, it's just another thing they learn as they go, while it's safe to assume that Basch knows the way of the soldier given his position. On the same note, the first time we meet Selphie, she comes tumbling down a cliff, so if not for her uniform, I'd peg her as a sivilian until stated otherwise. This is the part I probably regret the most writing. Although I didn't mean anything really bad about it -- I tried going for some personal bluster myself, puffing myself up as it were -- but after having spent up to three hours writing this thing, maybe my frustration of having to spend so much time doing this was wearing me out. And it's mostly because of this: The thing is, you're using your own preferred set of rules to judge the games and the characters in it. You called the characters "boring" and "cliched", but did you honestly stop and think why others might not see it the same way? Why I might not have seen it the same way? I might have started this with a single sentence, but when I replied to your long posts about the characters in it, I was trying to tell you why I didn't think they were any better than the characters in FF XII. Part of this MAY have something to do with me having great expectations to FF VII and VIII, while having none for XII when it was eventually released. (I didn't even buy it at launch date like I did with the others because I thought it would be really bad.) And yet, the people around me -- as in my friends where I live and in the other community I frequent (THEManime) reacted with surprise when the game exceeded their expectations, so I decided to try the game myself and found that it was more enjoyable than I thought it would be. I don't think you're wrong -- I'm not here to tell you what to think -- but my main goal was to try to get the point across why I don't think the characters in XII was as bad as you said they were. Now, I HOPE I didn't come across as being too personally involved this time. I ended up writing another long block of text again, but I felt I kind of owed you that, given how this all turned out, and over a game I like, but not adore above all else. ... Ok, maybe one little jab to end this: Ahem. ALL FINAL FANTASY'S SUCK! ;D OMG STFU NOOB!
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Post by Roas on Sept 21, 2009 12:14:17 GMT -5
Grrrrrr So I'm trying to play Sins of a Solar Empire...and what I've been able to play I'm enjoying... ....but now I'm getting a Black Screen of Death crash that happens at random moments Only thing that has me not rampaging is that this seems to be a problem that others are having with this latest version of the game 1.17. Since there seems to be no forum answer at the moment, I've emailed Stardock. Dammit....I wanna play this game EDIT a few hours later: Well, I have yet to hear from Stardock...so I just deleted and reinstalled the game without the patch...works fine so far. bleh...the patch upgraded the power of one of my capital ship's missile abilities
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jwl
Look Ma, I'm a Gamer
Posts: 54
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Post by jwl on Sept 23, 2009 21:56:52 GMT -5
I have never played FFXII, so I can't say much about that, but I do have a few things to say:
- My brother's favorite game ever is FFVII. But he hated the battle system in FFXII so much that he actually returned the game. The story also failed to hook him, or else he may have put up with the battle system. I'm just sayin'.
- I pretty much agree with everything Roas said about FFVII and FFX. Holy cow I agree with Roas... AGAIN.
- As (probably) the biggest Phantasy Star fan here, I have to admit that there's absolutely no way you can say that the characters in the PS series are as fleshed out as those in FFVII and FFX. Well, *maybe* PSIV, but definitely not the others. I really wouldn't expect them to be as fleshed out, since PSI-III are much earlier games than FFVII and FFX.
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